I agree–historic sites should be preserved if possible. Could Wal-Mart have built in a different area, close by?

That’s ironic given that your main argument about progress is utilitarian. May I ask how you derived your choice function given the impoverished data set (which is exactly the issue we disagreed upon initially)? RPT is much more straightfoward in budget scenarios (for individuals) which also require plenty more data points. In collective choice problems you really need a good reason to drop indifference curves, et.al. Do you have some problem with convexity here? I suspect we may disagree on axioms for this scenario. Are you invoking Nash? What about Suppes-Sen? Is your account Pareto normative?

BTW, whether you use classical models or RPT or a combination of both (as Ok and Zhou have done), you should know that the definition of preference per se is no different. We’re talking about different ways to determine them. You need more than one data point in either approach. It’s not even necessary here to address Professor Wong’s critiques of RPT.

I’ll add Revolt of the Masses to my wish list. Thanks!

I have heard of Hoffer but never have read his stuff. From his wikipedia blurb he does seem to be interesting and non-ideological–a plus. I’m particularuly interested in what he would have to say about the political party fanaticism of the right and left in this day and age. This statement is also intriguing: “In Hoffer’s view, rapid change is not a positive thing for a society, and too rapid change can cause a regression in maturity for those who were brought up in a very different society than what that society has become.”
You should read Revolt of the Masses, it’s more about the decline of a liberal education and its consequences for Western Civilization (though mass movements are part of it). It’s classically liberal (as in Adam Smith or Edmund Burke).

I guess the fundamental difference between us is that I place a higher value on what the Teotihuacan citizens prefer. I really have no qualms with a lot of what you wrote either, I just think their preferences should carry a larger role, is all.

Regarding your friends from los sauces: let me be clear, I am not arguing that the only reason immigrants from Mexico come here is in search of “only consumption”, or any other specific reason or group of reasons. It’s a multilayer decision that includes many variables and is different for each person that comes over. My point is that whatever those variables are, by making the conscious choice of picking up their things and moving, they have voted with their feet that the life in the United States (or north, or wherever they are immigrating to) is better than where they currently reside. Why else would someone move to an area that doesn’t speak their language, away from most of their family and friends, and is in general hostile to them if not because life is still, with all of these faults, better (however defined) there than where they are from? Jesus was accusing me of judging the two societies based on my cultural influences and values – I am pointing out that people in those very societies have already voted for one society over the other. And it’s rarely the case that the reverse is true – that someone from an industrialized area, chooses to go back to farm life and its arduous lifestyle. After all, we both know Jesus, for as much as he romanticizes the lifestyle, still consciously chooses to remain in the United States.

I re-read your last post and noticed I failed to answer one of your questions, you asked: Have you read the Revolt of the Masses? …No, I have not, but I have read a lot of Eric Hoffer. My favorite is “The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements”

HP,

No. I would still want Walmart to look for a better location OR absorb the costs of preservation even if it were 100%. However I would respect that fact in the context of all the other considerations. It is important. If a 100% were against Walmart that would also be important yet would still have nothing to do with my issue with Walmart’s m.o. worldwide. We are misunderstanding each other because you are conflating a couple of arguments that need seperate treatment, including some that really have nothing to do with my original argument. I think all the other considerations you mention are interesting and I can agree on some of them, but they are tangential to my position.

I have friends from los sauces, BTW. They are quite religous. Every argument I might make about culture, humanity, etc., is completely intelligible to them even without formal education. They were searching for a better economic life when they moved here, but they are not only about consumption and they never have been. Some people from their “pueblo” if it is even that (technically) surely think differently than they do. But that’s the point–not everyone thinks like you or your family. Just because people are poor does not make them monolithic or in possesion of some alien thinking. The same thing goes for the rich. That doesn’t mean some universal can’t exist such as a general preference for economic development to making everything around them a museum (though that could also be a development strategy)–duh. But my original argument about options, transaction costs, and bargaining power–the one you never responded to–still stands.

I’ll let Jesus defend his own comments.

We still seem to be misunderstanding each other (I fully admit it could be because of my end, I was an ESL student after all). Allow me to make my point stronger: what I am primarily interested in is what the majority of Teotihuacan citizens want. Not, as you state, “some people”.

Let’s get down to our basic disagreement, lets assume, arguendo, that there was a poll taken that met your standards of an accurate scientific poll and lets say that ~55% of Teotihuacan citizens wanted the Wal-Mart…would that have changed your mind? If not, what would? What if it was 75%?

Regarding Jesus, oh, I am sure he is an accomplished person. That is precisely my point in this whole discussion: he does not know the life, with any real experience, of those he so romanticizes. None of us really do.

Regarding vocational degrees: I am certainly not one of those people. I have alot of respect for vocational degrees. In fact, I would place the lowliest vocational degree, say basket weaving, as far more useful and respected than the highest Chicano Studies degree. But that is another topic for another day….

I know Iguala. I was there in November 08. But when I talk about the South and Guerrero in particular, I am talking about the “South” that Jesus seems to be referring to: the hardcore small pueblos and “self sufficient” farm areas. Places like Tlacotepec and especially the surrounding areas, where my family is from (my dad was born in Zacapostepec, not too far from Tlacotepec, the center capital). Shit, even Apaxtla, where my grandma lives and does not have any running water, would count. Iguala, like Taxco and especially Acapulco is too city life for what Jesus seems to be referring to. To say that the small pueblos like Zacapostepec are similar in any definition of “progress” or standard of living to our own, is, I have to say, hogwash. Only someone deeply trained in Chicano Studies and their ilk could believe such BS.

Also, you didn’t answer my question, so I will ask it again: do you agree with Jesus comments above?

We don’t disagree on the fact that some people wanted Walmart. Some people wanted the Spaniards too–especially with the shoddy treatment that the Mexica were known for. That doesn’t make it less of a conquest for the rest of the people who didn’t want them there. My point is about protecting the little bit of native culture that’s left. I know what your basic point is that we should not allow people to starve in the present just to protect some ruins from the past. Again, we don’t disagree on that either. But you would assign no ethical duties to mega-corporations when they do come in to town–I cannot agree with that. As for me mentioning what people wanted, I know more Mexicans who thought it was horrific than those who approved of it. The picture of Walmart is from a Mexican newspaper if you didn’t notice. Your 55% statistic is interesting but not even you could cite it; so, why should I know about it or need to cite it myself? Again the methodology and the source matters in any case. Remember, there are three kinds of lies: “lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

BTW, I have been to Guerrero often and have in-laws in Iguala. Don’t be so certain that none of us really know what’s going on in Mexico. You should also know who you are talking about or whom you are flaming. You could find stuff out be asking. Jesus is quite an accomplished person in Chicago. You should also know that there are no Universities in Illinois that provide Chicano Studies degrees so don’t project your Southern California issues too much here. I personally regret not having had access to such courses. As for what counts as a good degree, many I know tend to look down on vocational degrees as something folks take at state schools. In fact, many of the best private schools do not offer undergrad engineering at all or only as a secondary option in math or a pure science. My point is why all the hate about Chicano studies majors? I met a few when I was a kid, most were inspirational (a few were strange) but that’s not unusual for a lot of crit-type disciplines these days. At least the idea behind CS aspires to critical thinking (at least in theory). The problem with other narrow disciplines like applied sciences is that they tend to not teach people the basics necessary for comprehending and contributing to Western civilization (yes, I really mean “Western”) yet such people feel qualified to opine about all matters under the sun.

Have you read the Revolt of the Masses?